Alcoholism Disease or Addiction

[shallbe]

Originally Posted by Strat

I hear ya...all those facts 'n stuff......

I'll take my real life experiences over someone else's claimed "facts," anyday. Regardless of whether we are talking about leadership, alchoholism, raising kids, working out, dieting, whatever.

"Facts" are all over the map in every one of the few topics I've listed above. Academic "facts" (usually no more than claims based upon some research) are often good starting points when you are truly uniformed, but real truth and wisdom comes from your experiences in an area and learning from them.

[wingtip4]

Having been through this I can tell you - BOTH.

[Zelmo]

Originally Posted by Bones

My father is and I ended my relationship with him almost 20 years ago.

That's fine. However, it's not so easy in many other cases. And you're certainly not alone in your actions with respect to your father. This kind of thing happens all the time, both with and without collateral damage.

[jaydub69]

Originally Posted by Dillow4092

I hate to rear this ugly thread again but...
I was told last night that I’m not being supportive because I don’t think alcoholism is a disease. All I know is it seems to ruin the lives of people dealing with it, more than the alcoholic. Am I just confused, or just tired of dealing with it.
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I don't know you, but from what you wrote and from my own experience, you sound as though you are confused AND tired of dealing with it. Who could blame you. It's awful no matter how you label it. I know it's very upsetting to deal with alcoholism with friends and especially family. You have every right to feel whatever it is you feel. Luckily for you, there are millions of other people in you exact same situation.

Perhaps give a few different Al-anon meetings a shot. Doesn't mean you have to go all the time, but at least give it a shot. There are so many people there that have been where you are now. At the very least, you can get decent feedback from them, rather than just hearing it from a bunch of faceless people like us.

Been there, hated it. Still not psyched about loved ones flaking out around me, but at least now I'm not confused or preoccupied by it.

Good Luck,
John

PS Keep us posted

[stratovarius]

Originally Posted by Gas-man

Yes, quite.

Some facts of yesteryear come to mind...like eugenics.

Those facts turned out great.

But, it's science!

You really had me going!

For a second there, I actually thought you were serious.

[mad dog]

Having lived with it, and lived it, I find that this whole line of inquiry is misdirection at best, denial at worst. The effort to categorize might be helpful to some, never was to me. Functionally speaking, it's a crippling, deadly problem, calling for both compassion and great toughness. When I see it that way, I continue to help myself, and possibly can even help others.

[phoenix 7]

Originally Posted by shallbe

I'll take my real life experiences over someone else's claimed "facts," anyday. Regardless of whether we are talking about leadership, alchoholism, raising kids, working out, dieting, whatever.

"Facts" are all over the map in every one of the few topics I've listed above. Academic "facts" (usually no more than claims based upon some research) are often good starting points when you are truly uniformed, but real truth and wisdom comes from your experiences in an area and learning from them.

In some cases, yes; in some cases, no. For example, you can't reliably judge how the global economy is doing just by seeing how things are going in your town. And you can't make a responsible judgment about the issue of climate change just by observing the weather in your city. Ignoring a body of scientific knowledge just because you have some personal experience with something seems dangerous. Why not let both personal experience AND science inform your judgment?

[Strat]

As you will.
I'm only telling you what science knows to be the case in neurobiology, reproduced in the lab and verified by real world double blind studies of the biologic mechanism of disease in addictive behaviors. You are only concerning yourself with the end result without ever asking how does one get there. Your experiences are simply that and explain nothing. Alcoholism is no different than morbid obesity, opiate addiction, compulsive shopping, sex addiction etc etc,. No different at all as far as the human brain is concerned. Not one bit. Feel free to ignore the science of addiction if you wish but for anyone else who may be interested in the big picture

Here is a reasonable starting point:
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh21-2/101.pdf

Originally Posted by shallbe

I'll take my real life experiences over someone else's claimed "facts," anyday. Regardless of whether we are talking about leadership, alchoholism, raising kids, working out, dieting, whatever.

"Facts" are all over the map in every one of the few topics I've listed above. Academic "facts" (usually no more than claims based upon some research) are often good starting points when you are truly uniformed, but real truth and wisdom comes from your experiences in an area and learning from them.

[59Vampire]

I am an alcoholic and have been sober almost 20 months. I drank to escape and to mask my depression. It was an addiction. I needed a drink to feel "normal" in the same way a heroin addict needs a fix. I smoked for 8 years and quit in 93 . It felt the same, addiction. I go to AA and they say its a disease. There have been no other alcoholics in my family. I am happy to be sober and know I can never drink again. I do not have any problems with those who FEEL otherwise. Feelings are not wrong.

[shallbe]

Originally Posted by phoenix 7

In some cases, yes; in some cases, no. For example, you can't reliably judge how the global economy is doing just by seeing how things are going in your town. And you can't make a responsible judgment about the issue of climate change just by observing the weather in your city. Ignoring a body of scientific knowledge just because you have some personal experience with something seems dangerous. Why not let both personal experience AND science inform your judgment?

I do not ignore science. However, I value my experience and hard earned knowledge over much I read. And yes, you can make very reasonable life affecting judgments without the latest science. People do it all the time, and it used to be called common sense.

Honestly, I have all the knowledge I need about alcoholics, having seen the process from beginning to end much more than once. It's quite cruel really, to have loved ones destroy themselves in front of you slowly while destroying and abusing their family at a much more rapid pace. They don't care about themselves, and they damn sure don't care about anyone else. It's painfully clear. All the while, all the attention is on the drunk, often out of necessity and survival.

Calling it a disease removes responsibility, gives an excuse, and puts the focus on the alcoholic. The family gets lost. They don't have a disease, just a lot of problems.

My wife smoked cigarettes for 14 years. She finally REALLY quit after many attempts 15 years ago before our second child was born. She says she could start up again in a heartbeat, but doesn't. Does that mean she has a disease? I think not. She became addicted to a powerful substance, quit, and changed much to stay quit.

Personal responsibility, strength, toughness, pride and love of family just don't graph well, I guess. Science is not always the answer.

[schmidlin]

Kudos to all you who have suffered and decided to get healthy. Really.

Yet, IMHO:
It got labeled a *disease* to get healthcare funding to treat and protect the drinker.

But ask yourself this: how many diseases do you know of that can be *cured* by simply making a decision (of abstinance) and sticking to it?

[shallbe]

Originally Posted by Strat

As you will.
I'm only telling you what science knows to be the case in neurobiology, reproduced in the lab and verified by real world double blind studies of the biologic mechanism of disease in addictive behaviors. You are only concerning yourself with the end result without ever asking how does one get there. Your experiences are simply that and explain nothing. Alcoholism is no different than morbid obesity, opiate addiction, compulsive shopping, sex addiction etc etc,. No different at all as far as the human brain is concerned. Not one bit. Feel free to ignore the science of addiction if you wish but for anyone else who may be interested in the big picture

Here is a reasonable starting point:
http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh21-2/101.pdf

That is a tidy explanation. Alcoholism may not look different as far as neurobiology, but it certainly effects the brains (and lives) of other people a lot more than someone's compulsive shopping. It is almost insulting to make the comparison.

[deluxemeat]

its a hobby or a sport.

[sleepingtiger]

Kudos to all you who have suffered and decided to get healthy. Really.

Yet, IMHO:
It got labeled a *disease* to get healthcare funding to treat and protect the drinker.

But ask yourself this: how many diseases do you know of that can be *cured* by simply making a decision (of abstinance) and sticking to it?

It's really not that simple. Abstaining is esential to sobriety, but the drinking is only a symptom. It takes many changes in character to truly break the cycle. You have to face the past & change as a result. It's hard to explain, but if you've ever known a "dry drunk", you know what I mean. They're sad miserable people who infect others with the same feelings, not unlike I did when I was drinking.

Tony

[Yankee Univox]

Originally Posted by sleepingtiger

It's really not that simple. Abstaining is esential to sobriety, but the drinking is only a symptom. It takes many changes in character to truly break the cycle. You have to face the past & change as a result. It's hard to explain, but if you've ever known a "dry drunk", you know what I mean. They're sad miserable people who infect others with the same feelings, not unlike I did when I was drinking.

Tony

Yep...and I can assure you that the vast majority who remain in this state WILL EVENTUALLY DRINK AGAIN...I did!