Interesting possible solution to the "loudness wars"

[meterman]

Stumbled across this the other day

http://productionadvice.co.uk/how-to...sing-your-mix/

I downloaded the tool but haven't gotten the real-time one to work yet but the offline version does work well and gives you peak, RMS and dynamic range for .wavs very quickly. The real-time version seems like it would be great to have up while mixing or mastering.

FWIW most of my rough mixes are coming in with a DR around 8, which apparently is too compressed even for rock...it would be very interesting to see what some of my favorite old records come in at, and some of my favorite new records. I wonder if this rating standard is something that would ever be widely adopted...

[Serious Poo]

Interesting link, I'll give it spin. After listening to about 15 minutes of Paramore the other day, my ears physically hurt from the over production and over compression on their tracks. It's not that the songs were bad or anything, it's just that they were so hot in my headphones that it made listening to it somewhat painful.

[meterman]

I got the VST plugin to work in Reaper, it's pretty interesting actually. Very good metering plugin in general showing peak and RMS with the addition of dynamic range. They recommend a dynamic range of 14dB, but on the track I tested I was at 10dB with all compression turned off, just the raw tracks, and then down to 6-8dB dynamic range with a few track compressors and a light bus comp was added. I'm not sure what this says about my source tracks or what if anything I may be doing wrong....this is a fairly hard rock song without alot of dynamics in the arrangement...I need to check out some of my other songs...

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by meterman

I got the VST plugin to work in Reaper, it's pretty interesting actually. Very good metering plugin in general showing peak and RMS with the addition of dynamic range. They recommend a dynamic range of 14dB, but on the track I tested I was at 10dB with all compression turned off, just the raw tracks, and then down to 6-8dB dynamic range with a few track compressors and a light bus comp was added. I'm not sure what this says about my source tracks or what if anything I may be doing wrong....this is a fairly hard rock song without alot of dynamics in the arrangement...I need to check out some of my other songs...

My advice is to listen to comparable commercially released material that you find pleasant to listen to, and work toward that.

Watching meters isn't the way to go--it really doesn't tell you as much as you think (or that people will tell you) it does. I would call it fairly inaccurate for the purposes of "loudness".

[joseph]

Originally Posted by Sunbreak Music

My advice is to listen to comparable commercially released material that you find pleasant to listen to, and work toward that.

Watching meters isn't the way to go--it really doesn't tell you as much as you think (or that people will tell you) it does. I would call it fairly inaccurate for the purposes of "loudness".

I was wondering about this, for the engineers in mixing and mastering-
how often you use those metering windows, some of which are quite complex- as opposed to just using your ears and the total bus output level (as perhaps people did pre computer)?

[Bryan T]

Originally Posted by meterman

They recommend a dynamic range of 14dB, but on the track I tested I was at 10dB with all compression turned off, just the raw tracks, and then down to 6-8dB dynamic range with a few track compressors and a light bus comp was added.

That has to be a musical choice that you make. 14 dB might be fine for one thing, but totally inappropriate for another.

I'd find some recordings in a similar style and see what the dynamic range is.

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by joseph

I was wondering about this, for the engineers in mixing and mastering-
how often you use those metering windows, some of which are quite complex- as opposed to just using your ears and the total bus output level (as perhaps people did pre computer)?

The only reason I ever look is because sometimes people will ask. It's about having a calibrated system, comparable material to a/b it against, and your ears.

The last thing we need is more people mixing with their eyes on the meters.

IMO, of course.

[Julia343]

14 db may be overkill except in classical. 9 db is good. under 6 db gets ear fatiguing. it depends on the music. u can have a narrow dynamic song and it can be louder w/o tonal and dynamic sacrfice. wide dynamics need more.

sirry only 1 hand available 4 typing. fell downstairs. hurt left 4-arm.

[meterman]

Originally Posted by Julia343

14 db may be overkill except in classical. 9 db is good. under 6 db gets ear fatiguing. it depends on the music. u can have a narrow dynamic song and it can be louder w/o tonal and dynamic sacrfice. wide dynamics need more.

sirry only 1 hand available 4 typing. fell downstairs. hurt left 4-arm.

ouch, sorry to hear that! And thanks for the info. My rock songs are coming in with a DR around 10dB without the multiband comp in Ozone, and sound better, with the multiband comp engaged the DR drops to 4-5dB and the bass gets boomy

And I'm not mixing using the meters, just using them for feedback to try and understand what I'm doing, as I am learning still and don't really trust my ears or even what to listen for yet, when it comes to compression especially on the 2 bus

[Sunbreak Music]

Originally Posted by meterman

ouch, sorry to hear that! And thanks for the info. My rock songs are coming in with a DR around 10dB without the multiband comp in Ozone, and sound better, with the multiband comp engaged the DR drops to 4-5dB and the bass gets boomy

And I'm not mixing using the meters, just using them for feedback to try and understand what I'm doing, as I am learning still and don't really trust my ears or even what to listen for yet, when it comes to compression especially on the 2 bus

You seem to be really into this stuff (in a good way), so I'll try and get you to understand this. The numbers are useless. You'll know when it's overdone because of the way it sounds. RMS values do not equal loudness, and there are no "standards" for genres.

This metering thing is a bad way to go. A/B your material, and develop your ears so that you can trust them. It takes practice, and there's no easy way to get around that.

The numbers don't tell you anything that you need to know. Oddly enough, it's what they don't tell you that's important.

[fuzzyguitars]

Originally Posted by meterman

I got the VST plugin to work in Reaper, it's pretty interesting actually. Very good metering plugin in general showing peak and RMS with the addition of dynamic range. They recommend a dynamic range of 14dB, but on the track I tested I was at 10dB with all compression turned off, just the raw tracks, and then down to 6-8dB dynamic range with a few track compressors and a light bus comp was added. I'm not sure what this says about my source tracks or what if anything I may be doing wrong....this is a fairly hard rock song without alot of dynamics in the arrangement...I need to check out some of my other songs...

how did you get it to work

thanks!

[Structo]

A lot of CD's that are recorded now seem to be recorded overly hot or compressed.
I get ear fatigue after a while.
I don't know if this is a technique borrowed from the rap and hip hop genre but it is pretty annoying.
What's terrible is you don't have any choice if you want a particular groups music.

It's kind of like when you download a CD from Itunes and record it to CD.
Something is missing or worse.

[Julia343]

I'm like 98% done w/ a mix. now time 2 turn up sliders. got the sound balanced. checked master buss... snare hits = 0 db. instrumental part @ -14 to -10 db. w/ vox chorus & guit solo @ -6 db. Ear says this is good.

[buchla300]

When mixing, the loudness issue doesn't enter my thoughts. It's a choice for mastering really, no?
Also, the choice is an artistic one IMHO, not a technical one.

[Julia343]

Yes it's a musical choice. If the song calls for a wide dynamic range you leave room. If not, you don't need to. I think we've just been seeing it overdone. When it comes to mastering you gotta make choices and strike a balance because people will listen in the car and need to hear everything, yet you don't want to overcompress everything.

Double-sided CD. lol. one compressed for the car. another uncompressed for home stereos.